TeamCapri

Tech, Repairs, Upgrades => Engine & Drivetrain Swaps => Topic started by: Rocketman on September 24, 2013, 11:11:17 AM

Title: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on September 24, 2013, 11:11:17 AM
Who's gonna have the first V6 Capri? It's now a pretty common swap on the BF 323 (the same chassis we are built on) so it should work for us...

Theoretical swap requirements:
-Transmission differential swap to retain 26-spline axles?
-Pedal swap (xr2 to V6) to hydraulic clutch master. Or a cable to hydro linkage (these exist, mechanical lever/hinge system)
-Custom engine mounts
-Cooling system modifications - the V6 has a very different routing than we do
-Major wiring

The swap should not require any cutting of the frame rails, the V6 is approx the same length as the stock engine.
My major concerns are firewall clearance and headight bucket clearance

WHO'S IT GONNA BE??
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: CapriTypeR on September 26, 2013, 02:07:34 AM
What cars did the KL's come in?
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on October 04, 2013, 01:55:38 AM
lets see. USDM got the KLDE (164hp)

93-97 Probe GT
93-97 Mazda MX-6 (some models)
94-02 Mazda Millenia (some models)

Also readily available from JDM importers as the KLZE motor (200hp) quite a handful of overseas vehicles got the KLZE
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Bigjakey on October 04, 2013, 03:53:37 AM
Omg. I hope somebody busts into this swap. This would be sick!!
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on October 16, 2013, 12:33:17 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/LtJerryRigg/V6%20Capri/IMG_20131015_125226_200.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/LtJerryRigg/V6%20Capri/IMG_20131015_141609_055.jpg)

Well, it fits without cutting anything. Get to work, folks!
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: CapriXR2 on June 25, 2014, 12:40:09 AM
I raced a coworkers K20 swapped civic coupe with my XR2 pushin 14-15psi and got walked on. I wouldn't mind a swap too. 200HP stock KLZE... But what transmission would be best?
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on June 25, 2014, 01:08:42 AM
A stock KL transmission with the XR2 diff swapped into it. There's no other options beyond that, other than custom/adapter plate
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: CapriXR2 on June 25, 2014, 02:09:58 PM
That sounds like more than I can handle. The diff swap would be difficult.
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/cto/4504803140.html

Local enough, a GS MX3 I could use for donor parts. Pick up the KLZE off eBay and use my VJ off the XR2 for 5PSI of extra HP! Maybe that is too much work... But the KLZE swap would be nuts. Can the stock (XR2) axles be used with the KL trans ?
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on June 25, 2014, 04:04:53 PM
The MX3 came with the 1.8 V6 - you don't really want that. The wire harness from it would be helpful though.

"Damkid" Did a writeup on the diff swap. There's info on ClubProtege and FordFestiva.com . You could also buy an MFactory LSD for the Capri (it will fit in the V6 trans) this way you get the benefit of the LSD + being able to use stock axles.

The V6 transmission uses 28 spline inner axle stubs, the Capri uses 26 spline, so they won't play together without the diff swap. (the swap makes the v6 trans use 26 spline stubs) There's no other way that I know of to make a hybrid axle set, other than welding, or custom machined axle shafts - one isn't reliable and the other is $$$

The VJ14 is too small for the 1.6L. You do NOT want to put that on a KL lol. There's plenty of turbo KL's out there - check out probetalk.com for their setups, there's a few proven tried&true setups. Most of them are over the 300whp mark, with 2.5L at your disposal it doesn't take much boost to make a ton of power
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: CapriXR2 on June 25, 2014, 05:41:44 PM
Thanks for the info Matt. I honestly want to make this KLZE happen.

http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?18065-How-To-V6-Swap-Guide

In this the author claims a GS MX3 is what's best. I know this is a lot of work and I am filled with questions.

I can pick up that local GS for 1k should I do it?
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on June 25, 2014, 05:53:23 PM
Keep in mind that the guide is written for BG or other chassis, not the BF, and certainly not the Capri. The only thing you'd use from the MX3 is the transmission & possibly wiring harness, and I think their transmission has the shortest final drive available. With a Probe GT/MX6/626 drivetrain you have the trans, wire harness, and 2.5L engine available. Piecing a swap together with a ZE & random parts would be more difficult IMO. I planned on doing the stock USDM KL engine, getting it running/driving first, then swapping to a ZE later on if I felt the need.

I have a Probe GT drivetrain & wiring harness (pictured sitting in the Capri chassis) sadly I have not had the time to touch it since putting it there.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: CapriXR2 on June 25, 2014, 06:15:43 PM
I know using the ZE would be harder but it's a better motor. I saw someone using the DE engine and swapping ZE parts to it.. So it would be better to find a probe GT than MX3GS for our chassis. Well There is one GT with a 5speed under 130k locally but the KLDE is blowing blue smoke. Wouldn't be a bad investment. Take what I need to swap in a JDM ZE and make the money back parting the rest. What additional parts would be required outside of a GT donor?
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on June 26, 2014, 04:57:19 AM
Youll need the different diff whether it be a stock XR2 diff or a 26 spline Mfactory unit.
Motor mounts will be custom, and I havent had a chance to work out the cooling system yet. I think a stock radiator will work with some creative hose routing.

The ZE isnt the KL holy grail anymore - its a hybrid motor made by using KLG4, DE, and ZE components. If I remember right it's a g4 bottom end, de heads & ze cams? Maybe I dont remember. It's a mish-mosh of bits though. The ZE has some weak points, as does the De and the G4.

But the ZE is 'easier' to drop in & go ill give it that
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: CapriXR2 on June 26, 2014, 04:01:50 PM
I heard the mounts would be the same except for one that had to be donated. I am looking for the most cost effective power making engine combination. I plan to order a JDM ZE. Do Maintenance on a stand possibly some other mods if needed. For the swap I will use a donor probe GT but what year is best? I want to use it's harness and transmission. Get the LSD and use the XR2 axles. What is the best ecu and vaf to use?
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Surfnut on December 20, 2014, 10:48:38 AM
I just saw this thread.  I'm swapping a stock XR2 engine into a car I'm building and I have to do something with the axles.

I'm using 1995 Thunderbird axle shafts (they have an O.D. of 1.08" and I believe they are 36 splines).  The XR 2 inner CV joints are 1.08" O.D..  I measured the cut part of the spline to be 1.01" - 1.02" or so.

Dutchman axles (    http://www.dutchmanaxles.com/services    ) told me they can respline my T-Bird axles to match the XR 2 inners for $135 for the pair.

If the O.D. of the V6's axle shafts is equal to or larger than the XR 2's inners (1.08") resplining may be an option for you.

If not, "The Driveshaft Shop"  ( 704- 633- 2380 ) can make you new axle shafts.  They quoted me $600 - $800 for the pair.  That's certainly not cheap but it's not a deal breaker either.  I can't remember for sure but I think they told me they guarantee the new shafts are good for 600 hp  (don't quote me - it's been a while since I talked to them).

Splicing axles is not out of the question either.  A decent machinist with a good lathe can turn the larger shaft down to the same diameter as the smaller shaft (if necessary) then chamfer the ends.  A good welder can weld them, slip a piece of DOM over the weld and weld that.  Drill a couple hardened steel pins through each end and I really think they'd hold 300 horse without too much trouble.

So the axle part of this problem isn't insurmountable.

Additionally, switching to a hydraulic slave cylinder at the trans isn't hard at all.  Wilwood makes a really nice "pull-type" slave cylinder that you can fit without too much trouble.

(http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac9/Surfnut74/XR2/clutchslave_zpsbf7558b2.jpg) (http://s880.photobucket.com/user/Surfnut74/media/XR2/clutchslave_zpsbf7558b2.jpg.html)

(I'll replace that 5/16" bolt with a grade 8 bolt)

(http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac9/Surfnut74/XR2/clutchslave2_zpse2e15491.jpg) (http://s880.photobucket.com/user/Surfnut74/media/XR2/clutchslave2_zpse2e15491.jpg.html)


Make a bracket with some good bracing and it should work fine:

(http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac9/Surfnut74/XR2/clutchslavebracket_zps9a1a8674.jpg) (http://s880.photobucket.com/user/Surfnut74/media/XR2/clutchslavebracket_zps9a1a8674.jpg.html)

So there ares some possibilities for the axle shafts for you and the clutch / slave cylinder mods are easy and will cost you around $100. 

Hopefully that'll help y'all a bit.

Good luck!

Dave
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: chrispoe on December 24, 2014, 01:56:29 PM
I believe have the axle and clutch issue backwards. You can't use the XR2 inner cv joints because they are too small to fit into the stock v6 28 spline differential, hence why you need to swap out to the smaller 26 spline differential to use stock XR2 axles.
One option I looked into was using the Probe Gt axles and have both shortened by 1.75 inches, resplined, and rehardened to fit the Capri's smaller 24 spline outer CV joint. The price I was quoted was $280 locally with no guaranties.
The V6 trannies already have hydraulic clutches, the XR2's have a crappy out dated cable clutch pedal. If you're using an XR2 for the swap, you should install the clutch pedal and master cylinder from the MTX N/A.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on December 29, 2014, 12:54:07 AM
Correct. You shouldn't need anything special axle-wise if you swap the differentials. The correct M-Factory LSD would be a good upgrade too :)

Also correct on the hydro system, the KL trans has a hydraulic slave on it already, it would be simple enough to swap to the N/A pedal & master cylinder.

I should have all the parts to do this, but I don't have the time for it and at the moment my swap-candidate vehicle is my daily driver
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on January 20, 2016, 02:05:48 PM
Yeah, I'm posting in an old thread.

The thought of shoehorning in a K8 and turbo intrigues me. If I'm reading correctly, It won't mate up to the XR2 tranny without an adapter plate? I'm assuming this will probably create clearance issues at the corners of the strut towers, framerails, etc...But do you think there would be room for a 16g in there somewhere? Rocketman, when you lowered that k8 in there, was the transmission still in there? I assume not, but we all know what assumptions do.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: chrispoe on January 21, 2016, 09:12:06 PM
Looking at Rocketman’s pics, the engine he lowered into bay was a KL. The K8 is the smaller 1.8L V6 from the MX3. The pics show the engine bay was empty, he then lowered the KL with the probes transmission still mated to it into the bay.
The B series engines and K series engine don’t share the same bolt pattern so an adaptor plate would be required to mate the V6 to an XR2 tranny. As for there being enough room for an adaptor plate, I couldn’t say for sure (maybe tomorrow I’ll measure the length of the B6 to the KL), but my guess would be it would still fit. In fact the capri’s strut towers are roughly 2 inches wider apart then the probes.
 
My concern is the power steering pump clearing the frame rail and the throttle body inlet clearing the master cylinder. As for fitting a turbo, you have plenty of room if you relocate the battery.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on January 22, 2016, 02:14:43 AM
I just saw you're from Wiscahnsin! I'm in Duluth. You show me yours, I'll show you mine. ;)

I recognize that it was the KL in the photo, however I somehow missed the transmission being still attached.
I am aiming more towards a K8, as I have it on good authority from a friend who builds race engines up here, that they can be a very robust, high-rpm powerplant if built right. It sure would be a fun canyon carver if that were the case. If the KL is a better match to that desire, and would make for an easier swap, I might as well try that route.

I'm torn between either this whole V6 idea and just doing a turbo BP build...
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: chrispoe on January 22, 2016, 11:16:01 AM
IMHO, I would do a turbo BP over a turbo K8. Performance would be roughly the same, but the bp would be cheaper, easier, and more reliable.

The KL  for the most part is identical to the K8 except it’s over bored and stroked to increase it’s displacement to 2.5L.   Swapping a KL or a K8 would be the same amount of work, but the KL will instantly yield 40% more power over the K8.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on February 04, 2016, 12:52:14 AM
The V6 transmission CAN be used - you have to swap the diffs between the KL trans and the XR2 trans. This gives the correct axle size & spline.

You could also go straight to an MFactory LSD, and order for the XR2 splinecount. It will drop into the KL trans and allow you to use XR2 axles.

IF all you want is V6, there are probably better options out there, like the Duratec platform. The KL has notoriously poor aftermarket support.

I wanted it purely for the sound. It has that powerful exotic tone that just drives me nuts

Turbo BP is kinda the best bang-for-buck regarding time, work, and money.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: chrispoe on February 04, 2016, 11:17:26 AM
I find it remarkable that you mentioned the duratec series of engines as potential swaps. When I started looking into possible v6 engines to stuff into my car, the duratec was the first one I looked at due to how plentiful and cheap they are. Unfortunately a couple of trips to the junkyard with a tape measure put that thought to rest. The 3.5l and 3.7l engines are over 5 inches longer then a b6 and have no MTX option.  Even the 3.0l engine is too big to be a realistic swap candidate. It’s an inch longer then a bp and with the intake manifold it’s too tall for the capri’s low hood line.

I love the sound of the Kl’s too, but I want to do the swap for the extra power!!!  The KL has a really wide powerband with no lag that no b6t or bpt is going to reproduce.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on February 04, 2016, 12:00:26 PM
IMHO, I would do a turbo BP over a turbo K8. Performance would be roughly the same, but the bp would be cheaper, easier, and more reliable.

The KL  for the most part is identical to the K8 except it’s over bored and stroked to increase it’s displacement to 2.5L.   Swapping a KL or a K8 would be the same amount of work, but the KL will instantly yield 40% more power over the K8.

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/cto/5391387904.html

Check that shit out, though!

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/csw/cto/5426663893.html

That one has the KL. Let me know if you want help picking it up. ;)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mazda-Ford-Probe-JDM-Engine-MX6-Motor-KLde-KL-DE-2-5L-2-5-Liter-V6-Curved-Neck-/321978280078?hash=item4af766a88e:g:Q9cAAOSwKtlWmoAi&vxp=mtr#viTabs_0

Or just have it laid in from texass!
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: chrispoe on February 06, 2016, 11:24:45 AM
MX-3 GS with a MTX is rare? There’s only 50-60 left? Sounds like that guy just pulled those numbers from his a$$. Now a GS with a ATX that still works is way more rare…lol

That curved neck KLZE on ebay looks real nice, but after freight charges the total comes out to $850.
$850 for an engine with unknown miles, no real warranty, and has maybe 180hp vs the local junkyards by me that have the 170hp curved neck Millennia engine with actual known millage, a hassle free warranty, comes with wire harness/ecu, and only cost $250-300.

As for me, god unfortunately decided where the KL for my swap came from with a wind storm that took down the 60 ft pine tree next to my driveway last October. Thankfully the Capri and the Cadillac were in the garage and the wife was at work with the Protege, but my Probe wasn’t so lucky. The local junkyards only offered $100 tops and after 2 months on craigslist, the best offer I got was $400. So I decided it was best to part out the Probe.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on May 26, 2016, 12:22:58 PM
So, which probe 2.5 do I want? the one after 6/16/92 or before?
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: WashiestSnake on May 26, 2016, 07:53:18 PM
I really wanna see a KL in a Capri with a Celica AWD tranny, that would be a insane combo. It would require so much work but would be so cool.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: chrispoe on May 29, 2016, 07:27:34 AM
So, which probe 2.5 do I want? the one after 6/16/92 or before?

The 92 and earlier Mazda 626/MX6 and Ford Probe were first gen and came with the F2 /F2T(except the Probe LX it had a 3.0L Vulcan engine).
Second gen (93-97) had the FS-DE and the KLDE for engines and different years will yield you with different KL setups.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: chrispoe on August 11, 2016, 09:11:47 PM
Who's gonna have the first V6 Capri? It's now a pretty common swap on the BF 323 (the same chassis we are built on) so it should work for us...
IMHO… I wouldn’t call a KL swap into a BF chassis common from my research, I can easily count the amount of documented swaps on one hand…LOL


As for tranny
The Probe and the MX3 both have a final ratio of 4.39. The MX6 and 626 come with a 4.1 and they all have the same identical short 3rd-5th gearsets.
I’m not a fan of the 4.39 ratio in my Probe and think it would suck in the Capri due to the fact that our tires are smaller in diameter then the Probe and MX3.  It’s too low of ratio for traction in 1st and too short of a 2nd gear, while 5th gear would have me running over 4K rpm down the freeway.

If you’re going to do a differential swap to get the V6 to 26 spline outputs to use the XR2 axles, I wouldn’t tear apart a good XR2 tranny for sourcing a differential. It would be easier and cheaper to get a 97+ Escort tranny and swap the shafts and differential into the V6 tranny. The 98+ Escort ZX2 have same ratios as the V6 from the MX6/626, while the 97+ Escort seden has a 3.85 final and same 1st-4th gear as an XR2, but with a nicer .717 5th.

The thought of shoehorning in a K8 and turbo intrigues me. If I'm reading correctly, It won't mate up to the XR2 tranny without an adapter plate? I'm assuming this will probably create clearance issues at the corners of the strut towers, framerails, etc...
After getting my KL and tranny and doing various measurements and stuff, an adaptor plate to the XR2’s tranny won’t work. The 4 cylinder tranny bellhousings put the starter on the engine side and that won’t work with the wider V6 block and it's exhaust manifolds. Plus the added thickness of an adaptor plate also won’t help with the clearance of the KL’s front cam pulley and passenger side headlight bucket.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: WashiestSnake on May 24, 2018, 10:12:07 AM
Here's something intresting. I've been tooling around in junkyard comparing BG 323 with the Capri, and it looks like the rear suspension from a 323 will work aslong as you use the top mounts. The subframe won't fit but the trailing arms and all will only to our subframe it seems. The diameter is the same. With the fronts you could do as Chris did and use front BG spindles with the Chevy links to get the right caster angle and all. I was actually thinking about this swap for awhile, as the 626s and Melinia cars are all over junkyard here, and the NO i bought ended up having a bad crank, from a 2 of the bearings spinning.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on May 24, 2018, 11:06:41 AM
Who's gonna have the first V6 Capri? It's now a pretty common swap on the BF 323 (the same chassis we are built on) so it should work for us...
IMHO… I wouldn’t call a KL swap into a BF chassis common from my research, I can easily count the amount of documented swaps on one hand…LOL


As for tranny
The Probe and the MX3 both have a final ratio of 4.39. The MX6 and 626 come with a 4.1 and they all have the same identical short 3rd-5th gearsets.
I’m not a fan of the 4.39 ratio in my Probe and think it would suck in the Capri due to the fact that our tires are smaller in diameter then the Probe and MX3.  It’s too low of ratio for traction in 1st and too short of a 2nd gear, while 5th gear would have me running over 4K rpm down the freeway.

If you’re going to do a differential swap to get the V6 to 26 spline outputs to use the XR2 axles, I wouldn’t tear apart a good XR2 tranny for sourcing a differential. It would be easier and cheaper to get a 97+ Escort tranny and swap the shafts and differential into the V6 tranny. The 98+ Escort ZX2 have same ratios as the V6 from the MX6/626, while the 97+ Escort seden has a 3.85 final and same 1st-4th gear as an XR2, but with a nicer .717 5th.

The thought of shoehorning in a K8 and turbo intrigues me. If I'm reading correctly, It won't mate up to the XR2 tranny without an adapter plate? I'm assuming this will probably create clearance issues at the corners of the strut towers, framerails, etc...
After getting my KL and tranny and doing various measurements and stuff, an adaptor plate to the XR2’s tranny won’t work. The 4 cylinder tranny bellhousings put the starter on the engine side and that won’t work with the wider V6 block and it's exhaust manifolds. Plus the added thickness of an adaptor plate also won’t help with the clearance of the KL’s front cam pulley and passenger side headlight bucket.

Now, looking at a 94 Probe G5M-R, it looks like the starter mounts right about where the stock XR2 turbo inlet would be. So the best way to make this work is to use the KL, the G5M-R, the XR2 Diff and axles, as well as BG spindles? Holy hell, and that's assuming you'd still have to get creative with plumbing as it is, not to mention the harness grafting...
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: chrispoe on May 25, 2018, 10:21:40 AM



The BG rear suspension will not be a simple direct swap to a BF. I've only heard of 2 people that have successfully completed the conversion.
The lateral arms on the BG are longer and the trailing arm's forward bushing is larger too so it won't just bolt onto the Capri's mounting point. Another issue the people that done this have mentioned is that you will need adjustable coilover setup. I'm not sure if this is due to ride height or strut/spring clearance issues.

The only performance benefit would be the one inch larger rotor. It would give you about a 15% stronger ebrake, but when it comes to regular braking it would be considerably less of an improvement (if any at all) due to the front brakes doing most of the work.

IMHO...Don't bother with BG knuckles. The build quality/reliability is superior to the BF knuckle, but handling/performance is worse. I only did the swap to see how they actually would perform if I used them for my crazy BG/GE frankenstein knuckle creation.



Now, looking at a 94 Probe G5M-R, it looks like the starter mounts right about where the stock XR2 turbo inlet would be. So the best way to make this work is to use the KL, the G5M-R, the XR2 Diff and axles, as well as BG spindles? Holy hell, and that's assuming you'd still have to get creative with plumbing as it is, not to mention the harness grafting...

If you use the 26 spline differential and the XR2 axles, you use the stock Capri knuckles.

The plumbing isn't too bad, the heater hose connect right up, but the KL's coolant exit is on the passenger side and will either need to routed under the headlight bucket or back to the firewall and ran to the driver side.

As for wiring, use the KL's charger/starter harness and the engine harness too. You only have to connect about 8 wires or so to make it run. In fact wiring in a KL setup is less work then BP setup...LOL

Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on June 27, 2018, 09:00:01 AM
Well, I've got a deployment coming up, through which my 92 will be going to have a Razzi Kit installed after body repair/rust removal/respray/un-cunting in general, heat extractors fabr, flaring fenders, roll cage retrofit...Might as well hand it off to my local custom shop and get them to stab in the KL with a tiny turbo, fifth gear swap, bigger sway bars...etcetra. It'll be hopefully something unique and amazing by the time I get home.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: greywolf27030 on June 27, 2018, 06:52:01 PM
Sounds really ambitious, good luck with it and take care till you get back in the world.

Jack Byrd
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on July 13, 2019, 04:43:35 PM
If anybody hasn't done this...I might do it with my deployment money. we'll see, but it really would be dopenstien to do the vj14 on a KL. On just wastegate pressure, it should move out quite nice.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on July 14, 2019, 02:50:21 PM
The VJ14 is way, waaaaaay too small for the KL. It will literally choke the engine.
Turbo sizing & selection is very important
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on July 15, 2019, 08:00:22 PM
Well, I'm just thinking of turbos that I will have on hand. I do have an EVO 3 dish Chinese turbo that might be better for the extra .9 L of displacement, although the T-bird hybrid turbo that I have will probably also choke the engine. I think the Chinese turbo I have is .63 AR with a T3 flange, I don't know what else really about it would make it work or not.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: slowbird on July 15, 2019, 08:11:27 PM
How about TWO turbos?  ;)
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on July 16, 2019, 03:10:32 PM
Well you gotta get the KL in there first :D
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on July 16, 2019, 04:12:52 PM
How about TWO turbos?  ;)

I want to retain some form of traction, you walnut. Hahaha!
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on July 23, 2019, 09:11:08 AM
Another candidate aside from the KL is the KFZE. Jdm, harder to come by, but supposedly has the strongest composition, what with forged rods and all...
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: chrispoe on July 24, 2019, 10:27:01 AM
All K series engines came with forged cranks and rods. The KLDE\KFZE have the same rods and crank as the K8 which are no stronger than the KLs. If anything, the KL would be stronger with it’s larger crank journals and slightly shorter rods to accommodate the longer stoke of the crank.
The only K series engine that got stronger rods was the KJ-ZEM which was the 2.3L supercharged miller cycle engine found in the Millennia S.

IMHO, the KF engine should have come in the MX-3 instead of the K8. The KFs were essentially debored and destroked KLs that also used the KL heads unlike the K8 that had heads with size reduced ports and valves. The money Mazda spent to design and build the K8 was a complete fail, hence why the K8 was only available for a few years.
I would have to give props to somebody swapping a KF due to the rarity factor, but at the same time question why they didn’t go with KL with more power and more upgrade options. The KL can be built to handle 400-500HP for under a thousand bucks, the KF would cost thousands.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on July 24, 2019, 02:25:44 PM
I see. It is exceedingly difficult to find reliable information on them, apparently.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on March 24, 2020, 06:34:29 AM
How much space was there between the forward-most part of the KL and the radiator? I wonder if I turbo this KL if it would still work to fit a racing radiator made for the Capri in there, or if I should use a Civic-style radiator instead? Thoughts?
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on March 25, 2020, 09:18:04 PM
How much space was there between the forward-most part of the KL and the radiator? I wonder if I turbo this KL if it would still work to fit a racing radiator made for the Capri in there, or if I should use a Civic-style radiator instead? Thoughts?

As I recall there was very little room between the front cam cover and the headlight, it *just* fit. Things may have to shift or move a bit once mounts are made, I just dropped the engine into the bay without fixing anything to the proper place. I am unsure if an OEM capri radiator would work.

I doubt there would be any room for a turbo setup under the hood. You may need to do a remote mount turbo setup.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on March 28, 2020, 01:40:33 AM
Well, if I relocate the battery, it should be open enough under the bay for at least a 50 trim. Not saying that’s what I’m going to go with, but it seems to be what all the probe turbo kits come with for a KL.

I’m pretty excited about this project honestly, all I can do on deployment is just put the idea together.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on July 21, 2020, 09:59:40 AM
As far as the wiring goes, I'm going to get the harness from the same wrecker yard from which I'm sourcing the engine and trans. I won't need the ECU, as I'm going directly to the MS PNP route for ease of turbo shenanigans down the road.
I'm going to get the Mfactory diff to make the axles work. (as long as the length of the axles doesn't fall short...)
Someone had mentioned getting the V6 master cylinder for the clutch, would this be necessary if I were to just use an N/A capri master instead?
 
Anything else from the wrecker car I'll need? I believe it was a 97.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on July 23, 2020, 03:19:24 PM
Not sure on the finer details like wiring or clutch stuff, it hasn't been done in a Capri before so it's largely uncharted territory.

Might be some tasty nugs of info on Clubprotege. Haven't really looked for a wiring guide yet.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on August 26, 2020, 08:04:33 AM
I think I've arrived at yet another rediculous goalpost for this project. After seeing some other vehicles having moved their powerplant to the trunk, I'm considering doing the same, because sick nasty donuts in place might be the only thing more satisfying than having the world's first V6 XR2. I'm putting together a budget for it, starting with the KL-DE from a 94 Probe, just to get it moving. It can be NA for now, just to see how it handles, but I really would enjoy turbo in the not-too-distant future. Obviously doing this would relocate ALL THE THINGS into the current engine bay, battery and new fuel cell(Maybe, might be able to make the factory one work in the space available) for the sake of weight distribution.

Anyway, what I'm working out is what I could use to utilize the same wheels and tires, while retaining the Z wheels I have had for 5 years or better, as I dig the offset and stance. If I use this differential http://www.teammfactory.com/catalog/partno/MF-TRS-05G26 (http://www.teammfactory.com/catalog/partno/MF-TRS-05G26), I might be able to use the stock axles (540mm), provided they will accept the difference between them and the probes (541mm) with minor fab-fuckery. Since the PGT track width is almost 4" over that of the XR2, it may be possible to make up the difference in the jack-shaft rather than messing with suspension geometry any more than what is expected. What I'm HOPING will be the answer is being able to swap the XR2 outboard cv joint onto the PGT shafts, then figure out a bearing/hub combination that will jive, but the brakes may psoe an issue if the diameters don't also jive.
If they don't, then It may not be to late to just use ALL probe gear on the rear, and try to graft in some PGT knuckles, and (probably suspension, with top-hat-switching-frankenstien-fun) to make everything look fairly kosher.

This is exciting!  ::)
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on August 29, 2020, 05:53:40 PM
If you are using the stock PGT trans with the 26 spline Mfactory diff, the XR2 axles will work fine. The intermediate shaft needs a custom bracket to bolt to the probe block.
The track width should be correct with the XR2 axles.

The XR2 CV joints will not fit the PGT shafts. I've checked an OEM set, the spline counts are different. Aftermarket axles may be a different story but I wouldn't count on it.

I have recently set up my milling machine to cut custom splines, here is a test piece I did in aluminum, with an XR2 CV race fitted


(https://i.imgur.com/upXGQmA.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/oxLO8d1.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/gYSZ1xl.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/9BB2wIU.jpg?1)

So using this method, in the proper steel with proper heat treatment, it would be possible to make an axle that uses the PGT inner CV and the XR2 outer CV. No diff swap or mfactory needed. For a FWD swap. Hell you could theoretically make a custom axle for any make/model transmission that would physically fit. Where the HONDA bois at?!
My current setup could not handle the 15.5" axle length needed for this to work, I'd have to switch to my other mill with different tooling, but it is a neat proof of concept.
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Rocketman on August 29, 2020, 06:12:02 PM

Anyway, what I'm working out is what I could use to utilize the same wheels and tires, while retaining the Z wheels I have had for 5 years or better, as I dig the offset and stance. If I use this differential http://www.teammfactory.com/catalog/partno/MF-TRS-05G26 (http://www.teammfactory.com/catalog/partno/MF-TRS-05G26), I might be able to use the stock axles (540mm), provided they will accept the difference between them and the probes (541mm) with minor fab-fuckery. Since the PGT track width is almost 4" over that of the XR2, it may be possible to make up the difference in the jack-shaft rather than messing with suspension geometry any more than what is expected. What I'm HOPING will be the answer is being able to swap the XR2 outboard cv joint onto the PGT shafts, then figure out a bearing/hub combination that will jive, but the brakes may psoe an issue if the diameters don't also jive.
If they don't, then It may not be to late to just use ALL probe gear on the rear, and try to graft in some PGT knuckles, and (probably suspension, with top-hat-switching-frankenstien-fun) to make everything look fairly kosher.


You're all over the place here man. There's going to be zero "minor fab-fuckery" it's going to be major fab no matter what. Remember you are needing a custom subframe at the minimum, and using FWD knuckles will likely need FWD control arms with a mounting point on your subframe for them.

No sense in using Probe knuckles if you are swapping the diff? It's a 5-lug hub anyways. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to try to stuff all that stuff if it is indeed 4" wider into the back, especially given the fixed nature of the OEM strut towers

Your best bet would be to use Capri front knuckles, which will fit the XR2 axles, with a custom subframe to mount the engine and control arms, with dummy tie-rods (which will make the suspension a bit unpredictable I think, but the Fiero used this setup) But figuring out how to run an e-brake in this configuration will be hard. I'm not sure what kind of room is available under the stock rear framerails for this.

An option I had considered was to use 323 GTX rear knuckles, which the XR2 axles will fit, with a custom rear subframe, and probably custom lateral links & trailing arms to fit the custom subframe. But 323 GTX rear knuckles and struts are difficult to find. This would permit the use of an OEM caliper with e-brake at least. This is the closest you would get to the OEM rear setup

You're looking at a lot of cutting, welding & fab just to fit the drivetrain, none of this will work with anything close to the stock rear axle, nor a mishmash of OEM parts, not to mention a new proper firewall and sealing it off with the boot lid
Title: Re: Who's gonna be the first to swap in a KL V6?
Post by: Gaz on September 04, 2020, 08:29:45 AM
Yeah, that’s just my brain, man.

Brake said it was concerned, I was considering just going to full hydraulic drift lock set up, no I would have to worry about running a proper a brake cable or anything to those garbage cantilever style parking brake type calipers.

Yeah, using Capri knuckles was my first thought, but it had also occurred to me to use the 323 GTX knuckles, but like you said they are incredibly hard to find.

When I refer to fabrication Fuckery, I know it’s a project. I expect there to be a good deal of custom items needed. I’ve been reading up on the concept of suspension geometry and different sets of stabilizing pieces. It would be interesting to have a Watts link set up for the mock tie rod ends.