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Tech, Repairs, Upgrades => Capri N/A 89-94 => Topic started by: JimmyGermany on April 02, 2021, 04:10:13 PM

Title: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: JimmyGermany on April 02, 2021, 04:10:13 PM
Gentlemen,

I've got one headlight which has stopped flipping.

Today, I started troubleshooting.
Attached the electric motor directly to the battery, runs non-stop (as expected).
When attached to the plug normally, nothing.
Replaced control unit with a (used) spare - same result.
I cannot measure any signal at the plug when activating the switch. (Should I be able to?)

https://ibb.co/d5HFLwM

This is the connector in question - the previous owner spliced EVERY SINGLE WIRE - this is currently my prime suspect.
Should I be able to measure continuity between the plug contacts and the connections that to TO the control unit?

I'm kind of at a dead end and hoping for a tip.
Happy Easter to all!

Cheers
James
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: greywolf27030 on April 03, 2021, 07:55:00 AM
There is a clock spring in the light housing that controls the up and down movement. It is packed with grease from the factory and over time it is common for the grease to turn to wax and be non-conductive. A simple disassembly and cleaning gets them back going.
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: JimmyGermany on April 03, 2021, 11:53:43 AM
Hello!

Do you mean within the motors? I did that.
Cleared out the gunk and replaced with silicone grease.
The motor runs fine when connected to the battery directly.
There seem to be no current reaching it through the plug.

Should I be to measure the signal from the plug when using either switch? (I tried with the DMM but it shows nothing)

Should I be able to measure continuity from the contacts in the plug to the plug that goes into the control unit?

As a last resort, is it possible to make a new partial wire harness from the control unit to the one headlight? This is my least favourite option, because I’m lazy.

Happy Easter to you ALL!
James
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: Rocketman on April 03, 2021, 05:05:34 PM
I think the only thing you'll be able to reliably test is the motor windings thru the plug.

The other contacts in the motor plug are from the rotary switch, and continuity from those will depend on the motor's position.
The plug for the control unit in the vehicle probably won't show you much by probing it. It's going to "Read" the motor position and send power to the motor depending on its position information.

There may be some information, or at least wiring diagrams that can help you in the factory service manual. www.techcapri.com
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: JimmyGermany on April 06, 2021, 02:13:59 PM
Gentlemen,

Perhaps a silly question: are there different LEFT and RIGHT motors?
And, if yes, how can you tell them apart by looking at them?
I've seen listings mentioning the side, and some saying they are interchangable.

Gonna have to find a Pro to deal with this problem.
I think I've done all the poking I dare to :-)

Cheers
James
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: GermanXR2 on July 07, 2022, 04:22:34 AM
@James

Could you solve the problem?

My both headlights pop up without problems, after switching off the driver side light stays open.

Maybe after 6-8 trys (headlight switch or pop up switch console) it goes down.
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: greywolf27030 on July 07, 2022, 01:38:02 PM
The common problem with headlights is the hardened lube inside the motor. Corroded grounds are also a problem. I've been trying to get my turn signals working for six months.
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: GermanXR2 on July 08, 2022, 05:37:31 AM
@greywolf27030

Thanks for reply, i own the XR2 only a few days and have many question.....

Is there (except the Manual) any repair instruction maybe with pictures avaliable?
How to deinstall the motor/gear? How to open and clean?

This would be a great help.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: greywolf27030 on July 08, 2022, 08:47:44 AM
@greywolf27030

Thanks for reply, i own the XR2 only a few days and have many question.....

Is there (except the Manual) any repair instruction maybe with pictures avaliable?
How to deinstall the motor/gear? How to open and clean?

This would be a great help.

Thanks!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/210318449008872/permalink/755517504488961

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: GermanXR2 on July 08, 2022, 10:15:32 AM
PERFECT, Thank you!

Greetings from Germany!
Title: Grease? Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: GermanXR2 on July 10, 2022, 08:19:14 AM
I disassemble the headlight motor/gear.
At first view it looks like that some grooves are on the disk, but with thinner you could nearly remove it.
With 600 sandpaper I clean the disk and the three fingers.
Question to the grease, actual only at the gear worm and the teeth of the plastic disc is grease.
The metal disc and the three fingers are without?
Which parts should be geased? And what is the best grease?
Metal disk and metal fingers with only with electric contact spray?

Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: GermanXR2 on July 10, 2022, 09:53:52 AM
Here some Pictures

(https://abload.de/thumb/20220710_121327small59jk1.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=20220710_121327small59jk1.jpg) (https://abload.de/thumb/20220710_121331smalltlk95.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=20220710_121331smalltlk95.jpg) (https://abload.de/thumb/20220710_12160asmallrok9l.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=20220710_12160asmallrok9l.jpg) (https://abload.de/thumb/20220710_122802smallvzkfr.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=20220710_122802smallvzkfr.jpg)
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: greywolf27030 on July 11, 2022, 08:35:01 AM
Excellent, I use lithium grease on the gears and bulb grease on the contact plate.
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: GermanXR2 on July 11, 2022, 01:46:28 PM
I complete the gear with white grease, worm gear and theeth, put everything together.....and nothing  >:(   
Same as before.... Fxck

This is now my status:
If i turn the knob of the left headlight down (by hand), use the switch at the center console, both headlights pop up.
But if i press the button again, only the right headlight close. The left headlight stays open.

I try to check the motor:
White plug disconnected, to connect with external power:

As i understood to open the headlight:
brown wire is 12V voltage, green wire is ground.
->To close, reverse the wires.

But, if i connect green and brown at the motor plug, the lamp goes up an down, up and down....
Based on another thread, the headlight should goes only up with this connection (brown wire is voltage, green wire is ground)

Is this a normal behavior? that is turns and turns and turns.....
_____________________________________________

Another question:
Is the position of the cooper disk with the cut out's important? I assume, because of the three fingers on the cover:

Headlight modul got 12V power via switch (headlights on)
Send 12V to headlight motor
Motor turns, until a cut out was reached, connection disrupted (by one of the three fingers), Motor stops.
Headlights open

The same to close:
Switch send 12V to the motor
Gear wheel turns until a cut out is reached
Power connection interrupted, headlight in parking position.

I contact the previous owner, he told me that several workshop masters try to solve the problem without success. I open the gearbox, mark the position of the gearwheel with a pen, as reminder when i put everything together. My fear is, during a previous repair try, the gearwheel was misaligned and now the headlight does not reach the end switch.

I hope my description was understandable.....

Thanks!


Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: greywolf27030 on July 12, 2022, 08:18:29 AM
That is how I perceive the light operating. I've never had to deal with it so can't really help. Have you tried swapping the motors to see if the problem changes sides?
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: Rocketman on July 12, 2022, 02:13:32 PM
If you are applying power directly to the motor then yes it will keep spinning, running up and down.
There is a headlight control module under the dash, that sends a signal from the headlight switch to the headlight motors. It also "reads" the rotary switch inside the motor. May be worth tracking it down and seeing if it has good connection.
I think the headlight control module just sends power to the motor, and when the rotary switch reaches a certain position it knows that it's either up or down and applies or removes power to the motor as needed.

(https://abload.de/thumb/20220710_121331smalltlk95.jpg)

In this image here, the copper "fingers" that touches the disk - one of them is not as bent. It may be making poor contact. Bend it toward the disk to match the others, to give more tension

Remember there are electrical diagrams over at https://www.techcapri.com/Wiring.html
Best of luck, keep us updated

Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: GermanXR2 on July 12, 2022, 03:12:28 PM
Thanks a lot for your help!

I'd like to use a cable connection from the right side car plug to the left headlight plug.

I think it's less work as to change the motors.

Maybe another user can help with the position of the disk.




Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: GermanXR2 on July 15, 2022, 04:11:54 PM
I try to route a 5* cable from the right (working) headlight to the headlight motor (left, only open not close) and connect. Althrough i use new cable shoes i cannot get any connection.
So i dismount the right headlight and connect to the wiring harness of the left headlight.

Motor works fine, up and down as it should be. The wiring harness or the control module can be excluded.
Then i open the working motor, to compare it with the non working one.

Both headlights were in "open" position, the position of the disks deviates approx. 20°.

Picture 1 is the "defect"

(https://abload.de/thumb/20220710_121327small_15kui.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=20220710_121327small_15kui.jpg)


Working one
 (https://abload.de/thumb/20220713_194753smallw09j7x.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=20220713_194753smallw09j7x.jpg)


Is this deviation the reason?
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: EShepherd on July 15, 2022, 07:15:59 PM
So I'm in a similar situation to you, but I can't help yet. Neither of my headlight motors work, although I can move them by hand. Once I get around to troubleshooting it, I can let you know what I did and found. Sorry I can't be more help, but it's an issue I haven't had time to get around to yet. I'm moving these weekend or I'd go out there with my power probe right now and at least figure out power and ground to the motor for you.

Sorry. Will report back when I can.
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: GermanXR2 on July 16, 2022, 02:30:12 AM
Thank you for your message.

I really appreciate Capri drivers supporting each other.

Once again, a big THANK YOU from Germany to everyone!
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: chrispoe on July 16, 2022, 04:56:09 AM
EShepherd if both light don't work, then I would start with the HLM fuse in the engine bay electrical box first.
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: greywolf27030 on July 17, 2022, 08:20:20 AM
I try to route a 5* cable from the right (working) headlight to the headlight motor (left, only open not close) and connect. Althrough i use new cable shoes i cannot get any connection.
So i dismount the right headlight and connect to the wiring harness of the left headlight.

Motor works fine, up and down as it should be. The wiring harness or the control module can be excluded.
Then i open the working motor, to compare it with the non working one.

Both headlights were in "open" position, the position of the disks deviates approx. 20°.

Picture 1 is the "defect"

(https://abload.de/thumb/20220710_121327small_15kui.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=20220710_121327small_15kui.jpg)


Working one
 (https://abload.de/thumb/20220713_194753smallw09j7x.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=20220713_194753smallw09j7x.jpg)


Is this deviation the reason?

That's interesting. Can the gear be relocated to match the working one?
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: GermanXR2 on July 17, 2022, 02:25:23 PM
Today I disassemble the lift headlight motor.
Based on the disk position of the working one, I turn the disk to match.

Completed, press the center consol button, both headlights pop up.
I press again, right motor goes down, left stays open.
Total disappointment.

Then I turn the motor with the manual knob at the engine bay, approx. two turns.

Again the button at the center console. And it works. I can't believe it.

I looks that the control module got now a signal from the moved disk.
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: greywolf27030 on July 18, 2022, 10:28:53 AM
Today I disassemble the lift headlight motor.
Based on the disk position of the working one, I turn the disk to match.

Completed, press the center consol button, both headlights pop up.
I press again, right motor goes down, left stays open.
Total disappointment.

Then I turn the motor with the manual knob at the engine bay, approx. two turns.

Again the button at the center console. And it works. I can't believe it.

I looks that the control module got now a signal from the moved disk.




It does, sounds like you just need to move it a little more. Good luck.
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: GermanXR2 on July 19, 2022, 02:07:10 PM
The Merc is kidding me.

The headlights work two days .... now the same.....blind on one eye.

Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: greywolf27030 on July 20, 2022, 09:06:46 AM
Oh no! I'm getting the same thing, I'm trying to save a car with only 13K miles on it that set for over 20 years and corrosion has taken hold of it.  One problem after the other.
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: blueamber on August 26, 2022, 11:13:06 PM
It seems like your motor is stopping very fast, not allowing the cams to align correctly for control of the lift down signal.  Your turning the knob a little kind of proves this, it hasn't quite rotated enough to allow the signals to properly flow through the cam.  Does the bad motor turn a little slower, or make more noise than the other one?  Try backprobing the motor voltage at the connector without disconnecting the motor, then try it disconnected.  Maybe lower voltage getting to the motor causes it to rotate slower.

Have you swapped motors and did the problem follow the motor?  If so, then the motor is at fault.  You might try a thin lubricating oil on the bushings of the motor shaft, that may help it rotate better.

Also, check the lift assemble for ease of lifting, maybe oil the hinge on the lift assembly, that may be binding a bit.

I've got a pile of good motors if it comes to that, just pay for postage and one is yours.

blueamber in Florida
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: GermanXR2 on October 20, 2022, 02:17:00 PM
Sorry for the delayed answer.

If both headlights working, both shut up and down equally and at the same speed. The noise is also the same.

The hinges are smooth-running. I had already opened both motors and noticed that the metal disc was positioned differently. I adapted the "defective" one to the working one. Cleaned and re-greased everything.

Any other idea?
 
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: EShepherd on October 24, 2022, 04:30:02 AM
The common problem with headlights is the hardened lube inside the motor. Corroded grounds are also a problem. I've been trying to get my turn signals working for six months.

Hey, I hate to thread-jack Mr German XR2, but I noticed your comment here and I had to ask for more details. I'm having an issue with my left hand turn signals. Both the front left turn signal bulb itself is not working (with a new bulb), as well as the green left arrow indicator in the gauge cluster. I haven't pulled the gauges out to check that bulb. I really haven't done anything to troubleshoot  this yet. The car doesn't move, so why bother? But for my future selves' reference, I'd love to know wtf happened to yours that took 6 months to figure out.
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: greywolf27030 on October 24, 2022, 08:31:25 AM
Easy first step for turn signals is to use a battery brush on the sockets and a little grease. Of course, all seven, I think, grounds in the engine compartment need to be cleaned and greased.
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: EShepherd on October 29, 2022, 06:50:19 AM
Easy first step for turn signals is to use a battery brush on the sockets and a little grease. Of course, all seven, I think, grounds in the engine compartment need to be cleaned and greased.

See, I'm a jerk and left both my multi-meter and power-probe at work, an hour away, last night. Now I get to spend all weekend on my car with the mystery electrical issue, with no diagnostic tools. But thanks Wolf, I do believe I have a tube of di-electric grease, a wire brush, and an angle grinder. At least I can rule out a silly ground issue.

In fact, maybe I'll go a bit wild with it. I can run a big fat ground from where I grounded the battery to the chassis, to the block and to the head. Then I can collect those (4 or 5, I think) little grounds all around the battery tray, and thermostat housing and run them right to the big lug I installed. I think there is one last little ground over by the FR headlamp/PS pump, I'd probably run that little guy over there too. Then I can check all of my engine grounds in one spot!
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: GermanXR2 on October 30, 2022, 07:07:12 AM
I had the same problem and was surprised how rusty the bulb holder was.
I wrapped a thick pencil with sand paper and then removed the rust from the inside of the bulb holder. To protect i use contact spray. Then I installed the bulb and the loose contact was still there. I use a spark plug pliers and reduced the diameter of the bulb holder. Now it works again.

The gasket around the light is dry, any possible replacement ideas?
Title: Re: Headlight Troubleshooting - any further tips?
Post by: EShepherd on October 30, 2022, 06:37:30 PM
I had the same problem and was surprised how rusty the bulb holder was.
I wrapped a thick pencil with sand paper and then removed the rust from the inside of the bulb holder. To protect i use contact spray. Then I installed the bulb and the loose contact was still there. I use a spark plug pliers and reduced the diameter of the bulb holder. Now it works again.

The gasket around the light is dry, any possible replacement ideas?

Do they sell the big boxes with the multiple sizes of O-rings in them where you are? Maybe you'll get lucky and that'll have the right size. Otherwise, you could try and re-condition the original seal with silicone spray