TeamCapri

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Remember! TeamCapri is a donation driven site. There are no ads here!

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: No spark from coil  (Read 17599 times)

ChazMelton

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • 1991 Capri N/A
No spark from coil
« on: June 06, 2015, 03:04:20 PM »

Hi,
I am having a problem with a non-starter. I was running fine two years ago, then one day is just hesitated and stopped while my step dad was driving it. I just replaced the coil today, and I am seeing now that I am not getting any spark from it to the distributor. I have read miles of posts in multiple forums, and many people point to the ignition control module, but I can't see how something on the distributor can effect the coil getting spark. Please help me! Ask for any more info needed. I am begging you guys for help, I need this car running.
Logged

mitch1204

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
    • 1991 Mercury Capri NA Auto/ 1994 Mercury Capri NA
Re: No spark from coil
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2015, 04:12:18 PM »

When you turn the key on the power relay closes and energizes the primary windings on the coil. It's hot but it doesn't induce a spark until the ignition module grounds out the negative side of the coil.

There are conditions where timing has to advance or retard. Based on other sensors feeding the computer and communicating with the ignition module it can modify the fire when needed. So it's the ignition modules job to tell the coil when to fire. One is the muscle and the other is the brains, lol

Go here and download section 14 under the 1991 Capri manual. It's the most thorough manual. Section 14 covers troubleshooting the ignition system.

http://techcapri.home.comcast.net/~techcapri/
Logged

ChazMelton

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • 1991 Capri N/A
Re: No spark from coil
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2015, 05:54:43 PM »

Thank you for the explanation. I am ordering one today. I have already spent so much money trying to pinpoint the problem, I really hope this is it.
Logged

mitch1204

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
    • 1991 Mercury Capri NA Auto/ 1994 Mercury Capri NA
Re: No spark from coil
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2015, 07:09:54 PM »

We can say the coil is good since it's new. You can do resistance checks on it but we'll skip that.

First with the key on with a meter, ground wire on the chassis or battery negative... touch the hot meter lead to the coil positive +. It should read about 12v.

Then take the hot meter lead and touch the coil negative post while someone is cranking the engine. It should read around 6v. If it doesn't then I would suspect the pick up coil or the ignition module. First do an ohms check and check the pick up coil for continuity. If it's good then replace the ignition module. Testing is cheaper than parts. That link above and Section 14 has the test procedures and a few illustrations.
Logged

Rocketman

  • Administrator
  • Old-Timer
  • *****
  • Posts: 5493
    • 91 BPT AWD Capri & 1991 XR2
    • http://www.werbatfik.com
Re: No spark from coil
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2015, 08:45:33 AM »

If you crank the car over, does the tach needle bounce to show the engine is spinning?

If not, it's a good general assumption that the ignitor module is gone bad. It's a pretty common issue on the Capri.

Logged
1.8L Turbo All Wheel Drive Capri... the "GTXR2"


mitch1204

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
    • 1991 Mercury Capri NA Auto/ 1994 Mercury Capri NA
Re: No spark from coil
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2015, 10:29:03 AM »

If you crank the car over, does the tach needle bounce to show the engine is spinning?

If not, it's a good general assumption that the ignitor module is gone bad. It's a pretty common issue on the Capri.

A couple of questions there. The igniter is inside the distributor, right?

Where would you get one of them or do you have to buy a whole distributor?
Logged

chrispoe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 435
    • 91 BP Capri GT
Re: No spark from coil
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2015, 03:45:30 PM »

N/A's should have the igniter (Wells part#CR138) located externally and (Wells part#JP162) internally, while XR2's (part#LX593) have them located under the cap. They're available separate from the distributor just like the pick-up coil and can be ordered from most auto part stores.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 06:03:35 PM by chrispoe »
Logged

mitch1204

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
    • 1991 Mercury Capri NA Auto/ 1994 Mercury Capri NA
Re: No spark from coil
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2015, 07:16:02 AM »

So the igniter is just another name for ignition module?
Logged

Rocketman

  • Administrator
  • Old-Timer
  • *****
  • Posts: 5493
    • 91 BPT AWD Capri & 1991 XR2
    • http://www.werbatfik.com
Re: No spark from coil
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2015, 09:46:18 AM »

The XR2 & N/A both have an internal module connected to a pickup coil. On the XR2 that is the only one.
It's actually way under the cap, within the distributor body itself. You have to remove some distributor internals to get to it.

On the N/A there the internal module, as well as the external module.

Im not really sure why they used two different systems. I guess the N/A has some ability to electronically control spark timing (only a few degrees?) while the XR2 has the knock control system.

It's my understanding that when the Capri shows ignitor module failure symptoms (dies when module gets hot, will only stay running for shorter and shorter periods of time until no-start at all) that it's the internal module. It seems like the N/A capri will throw a code when the external module is starting to show problems (CID sensor)

Can anyone corroborate this info?
Logged
1.8L Turbo All Wheel Drive Capri... the "GTXR2"


chrispoe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 435
    • 91 BP Capri GT
Re: No spark from coil
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2015, 12:06:05 PM »

My old N/A distributor has a total of 4 electrical components. It has a pick-up coil and a ignition control module located inside. Externally it has what i thought was the igniter and a capacitor. When I get some time, I’ll take a closer look at the components and the schematics and see what's what.
Logged

mitch1204

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
    • 1991 Mercury Capri NA Auto/ 1994 Mercury Capri NA
Re: No spark from coil
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2015, 04:22:49 AM »

That 4th component is a radio noise suppressor. Thanks for the explanation on the other stuff. It was either Advance or RockAuto had both parts listed as an ignition module. That's where my confusion started. I wasn't sure if it was Aussie lingo or not, lol. The parts store just has it listed wrong. Not the first time that's happened. :)

I think it would be a good idea to carry a backup distributor.
Logged

Rocketman

  • Administrator
  • Old-Timer
  • *****
  • Posts: 5493
    • 91 BPT AWD Capri & 1991 XR2
    • http://www.werbatfik.com
Re: No spark from coil
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2015, 12:14:12 PM »

I always carry a spare distributor in my XR2.

I'm also a little irrational about carrying spare parts. On my 1600 mile MACG treks I would carry alternator, water pump, tbelt, distributor, hoses and all my tools. I couldnt afford to get stuck anywhere lol
Logged
1.8L Turbo All Wheel Drive Capri... the "GTXR2"


chrispoe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 435
    • 91 BP Capri GT
Re: No spark from coil
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2015, 06:21:05 PM »

All the part stores seem to list the parts incorrectly for the N/A’s. The external module isn’t a ignition control module, it’s more or less just a cam sensor.

The N/A ECM doesn’t have the ability to change ignition timing. The ignition time is completely controlled by the vacuum advance setup. This is why the N/A only runs +2 degrees BTDC and in regular operation always runs advanced to some degree. In fact the only thing the ECM can do is enable/disable the  ignition control module.
The N/A ignition system works as follows:
When the engine rotates it uses the external module (cam sensor) to tell the ECM what the rpm is. The ECM then send power via the green/yellow wire(the small plug with only one wire) to the distributor’s internal ICM to enable it if the speed is fast enough to run and not over revved. When the internal module is enabled, it uses the coil pick-up to help create the tach signal which drives the ignition coil and tach gauge.

The ECM monitors both the tach signal and the cam signal and continually compares the two. Generally when there are issues with the external module, the ECM gives you a CID fault (code 03). If the issue is the internal module then there’s just no tach signal.

I personally wouldn’t bother with a spare N/A distributor. You can easily replace all of the electrical component on it with nothing more then a philips screw driver and 15 mins of time.

Update: I was mistaken on the ICM, read my next post
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 10:23:12 PM by chrispoe »
Logged

Rocketman

  • Administrator
  • Old-Timer
  • *****
  • Posts: 5493
    • 91 BPT AWD Capri & 1991 XR2
    • http://www.werbatfik.com
Re: No spark from coil
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2015, 11:35:09 AM »

Ill have to check the FSM. That all sounds correct, but I thought I did see something about electronic timing in the FSM. It didn't make sense to me at the time.

The XR2's timing is purely mechanical. Our timing curves are a lot different.

The internal ingitor isn't super easy to replace on the road, you have to have a gear puller ideally to remove the 4-point cam 'star' that sits over top of the pickup coil. Considering all the other bits and bobs I carry, a dizzy's not a huge deal to carry and it takes 2 minutes flat to swap out.

While we are on the subject of ignition - I've toyed with the idea of replacing the internal ignitor with a more robust external one. Some of the V6 mazda folks had issues with theirs and switched to using an external GM HEI ingitor. They're significantly cheaper than the stock ones, a lot more common, and supposedly more robust. I may have talked about this here before, but what are your thoughts? It shouldn't be terribly difficult to wire up. I think we would need to fabricate a small spacer for inside the dizzy where the old ignitor bolted down, but that would be about it.

Theres some info available by googling "GM HEI mod"
Here's one I read not too long ago: http://www.clubprotege.com/wil/howto/hei/
Logged
1.8L Turbo All Wheel Drive Capri... the "GTXR2"


greywolf27030

  • Old-Timer
  • *****
  • Posts: 1658
    • 1991 XR2, 1992 XR2, 1993 XR2
Re: No spark from coil
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2015, 10:00:17 AM »

That sounds very interesting, I"ve always been a big fan of GM HEI since it first came out.

Jack
Logged
Jack Byrd
Pages: [1] 2